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WE
ARE NOT WILLING TO GIVE VISA TO NIGERIANS
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Culled from Daily Independent
Thursday, Feb. 26, 2009 |
MASSIMO BAISTROCCHI, Italian Ambassador to
Nigeria, is a journalist and a scholar. He holds a
doctorate degree in political science from the
Catholic University of Milan in Japan. He was
appointed by the Italian Council of Ministers as the
Italian Ambassador to Nigeria in July 2006. Born on
August 17, 1942 in Karuizawa, Japan, the ambassador
whose father was a diplomat has lived in various
countries including Brazil, Argentina, France and
Egypt. Before his appointment Baistrocchi had also
held sway as Italian ambassador to Ghana, Togo and
Namibia respectively. He also had a stinct in
Malaysia and Algeria.
In this interview with some selected reporters
including MICHAEL JEGEDE the diplomat encapsulates
his understanding of Nigerian politics and other
issues.
Excerpts:
How would you describe the political situation in
Nigeria?
Nigeria is a very young democracy and so the
political situation is still very fluid. Since the
country's return to democracy 10 years ago, there
has been some progress in her bid to laying a
foundation for political structures that should
stand the test of time, structures that are still
very fragile. This is attributable to frequent
political violence, endemic corruption, ethnic and
religious tensions which are all factors that
together impede the strengthening of federal
political structures. However, one can take solace
in the fact that even the oldest of democracies
still face some of these challenges. But it is the
ability to learn from past mistakes and make
necessary amends that should matter to Nigeria at
this point.
Do you have the kind of political tension we
normally experience in Nigeria in Italy?
The 'political tension' that we have in Italy is
very different from the one in Nigeria. In Nigeria,
reading from the press, I found tensions much more
violent than in Italy, especially at the local and
state level: where local politicians or would-be
politicians use any means for grabbing power. In
Italy the tensions are also high but more verbal,
and each party of a coalition accuses the other
coalition of every misdeed and misdemeanor; error
and wrongdoing and vice versa. Effort has to be made
to reduce the undue tensions that usually pervade
the political atmosphere in Nigeria.
Can you compare democracy in Nigeria with that of
Italy?
Of course, not. The histories and the cultures of
the two countries are very different. True democracy
in Italy started after the Second World War, when
the Fascist regime was terminated, even though a
sort of democratic system with a full Parliament was
in existence from 1860 under the King of Italy till
the advent of the Mussolini's regime. On the
contrary, democracy is a very young plant in Nigeria
and only in 2007 we have seen a smooth transition of
power from one democratically elected President to
another. So, there is invariably no way democracy in
Italy can be compared to that of Nigeria.
Which of these two systems of government do you
think is best for th country: The parliamentary
system or the presidential system?
Both systems have their pro and cons. I mean, they
both have their merits and demerits. So, one cannot
really say which is the best. Everything would have
to depend on how the country practising any of the
two decides to operate it or go about it.
Unfortunately, sometimes the parliaments are very
confrontational. Look at budgets. Parliamentarians
have constituencies (here in Nigeria like in Italy)
and when they discuss the budget, they try to push
financing to promote their own local interests,
thus, inflating budgets well over the limits.
How would you compare the living conditions in
Nigeria to that of Italy?
Living conditions can not be compared. Up until the
Second World War, Italy was a country of mass
migrants, and modern development in the country
stated in earnest in the '50/'60. Today, I am glad
to say that we are a member of the G8. Nigeria on
the other side with its programme - Vision 2020 - is
trying to overcome the legacies of the past and
become one of the new powers of the 2Ist century.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of poverty in Nigeria,
even though the country has immense wealth from its
oil. But this wealth touches only a minor part of
the Nigerian population to the extent that the
development of the country may be retarded if this
process is not reversed. It is very important the
entire people of the country are given the
opportunity to have a great feel of the abundant
resources in Nigeria.
Your country's Minister of Foreign Affairs
recently visited Nigeria. What was the essence of
the visit?
The visit started on Tuesday February 10, 2009 and
it was basically for the purpose of further
developing bilateral relations between the two
countries.
How would you assess the performance of Nigeria's
President Umaru Yar'Adua since he came into office
on May 29, 2007?
Well, I am not here to assess any performance, I can
only say that his legacy was a very difficult one.
But 'due process' and the 'rule of law' are starting
to produce benefits and more transparency in all
sectors of life.
Your Excellency sir, how would you describe the
relationship between Nigeria and your country?
Well, I would say that it is a very good
relationship for more than half a century already.
Even before Independence we have in this country
many Italians who were born in Nigeria. Though we
are not as many as the Lebanese, but we have a very
big community especially in the past. Today, the
community is a bit lesser. For example, we had about
12 to 20 years ago an Italian school in Kano which
had 200 pupils that are Italians. We also have an
Italian school in Port-Harcourt. Unfortunately, the
Niger-Delta collapsed it in the last two years and
the school in Port-Harcourt was closed and was
opened in Lagos. But also the Italian expatriates in
Lagos are much lesser than before, because the
people who are working in the Niger-Delta are coming
and going and their families are not coming with
them because it is a difficult situation there. But
Italian relation with Nigeria is excellent from the
beginning. Many of the most important roads made
during the 60s and 70s were made by Italian
companies.
The problem is that the lack of maintenance after 30
years and the heavy traffic made the roads not to be
so good anymore. But, we still have important
companies who are doing that in the North. So,
Italians are very well established here not only in
the building and the oil but also in the trade. So,
it is a very good relationship.
Do you really feel bothered about the crisis in
the Niger-Delta?
Of course, I feel bothered. Like I said, the Italian
school in Port Harcourt was closed because of the
Niger-Delta crisis. Most of the Italians and other
foreigners who left the region are scared of coming
back because of the situation in the area. I don't
think this is supposed to be so. But I believe that
the situation will certainly still calm down.
How easy is it for Nigerians to access your
country's visa?
We are not willing to give visa to Nigerians. We
have to be clear on that. I have excellent
experience with Nigerians. I believe that in Nigeria
there are very bright and intelligent people.
Unfortunately, just like we have very bright and
intelligent people on the good side, we also have
bad people on the bad side: you find people who are
dealing with prostitution, drug and things like
that. But of course, bad people are not in Nigeria
alone. Even in Italy you find people of the same
kind who are Italians.
So, it is always a question of a double standard
question. So, it is not only Nigeria you have bad
boys, in Italy we have our share and the bad boys in
Italy shares with the bad boys of Nigeria. There are
plenty of Nigerians who are working well in Italy.
But more than that we had an agreement that every
year only 2,000 workers can go to Italy. The other
bad thing is the fact that many of the people who
request for visa have presented fake document or
paper.
With the introduction of the electronic passport
by the Nigerian government, is it still possible to
present fake international passport?
Now, it is a little bit more difficult to present
fake passport since Nigeria started producing
electronic one. But it still happened that you see
people claiming to be the wives of somebody whereas
they are not. You see somebody saying he is the son
of a particular person whereas he is not. All these
are the usual Nigerian ways. They will say this is
my sister or this is my brother, while in reality it
is simply somebody who is from the same tribe or the
same village with them. So, this is the issue. There
are a lot of people who want to go Italy. First of
all, they go to Italy from where they go to Britain
and to the United State. Because, in Italy, you have
to speak Italian and Nigerians normally speak
English. But the bad boys are able to find their
ways to speak and to deal with them. The other one
would go because they want to find a good job. But
then, it is more difficult for them to find good
jobs in Italy because they don't speak Italian
language. But we have a big community of Nigerians
in Italy. Nigerians who came with visa and Nigerians
who came through the Sahara Desert or through the
sea. They go through Mali, and then Sahara (Desert)
and Libya, together with Ghanaians, Ethiopians and
Somalian people.
Last year, we have a record of illegal immigrants
going to Italy, and Nigerians were more than 15 per
cent. The people who crossed the Sahara are between
15-20 per cent. But last year, we had about 35,000
illegal immigrants. A lot of prostitution girls,
many of these girls were invited to go to Italy for
finding a job and after that they took away their
passport.
I want to think that they come from the main
city.
When I went to visit the orphanage homes last year
to speak about child trafficking, we dwelt much on
the need to desist from this heinous act.
This is going to be a continuous thing. I will be
going to visit the Oba of Benin and the Governor
again. I was there last year. I have heard that
there are very high-ranking persons who are worried
because of our move to stop illegal trafficking of
women: it is the oldest profession in the world. The
girls are there in Italy earning a lot of money
every month and sending it to Benin City. I was
shown houses built by a girl in Italy and this is
progress and they ask why do I want to stop this?
Human trafficking is something terrible. It is
something we need to fight. Human trafficking is
dangerous and criminal regardless of whatever amount
is made from it: it is illegal.
Do you work with any agency in Nigeria in your
effort to checkmate human trafficking?
We are fighting it together with NAPTIP. I have a
very good and perfect relationship with them and we
are doing a good job and we are investing a lot of
money in it. We have invested already in the first
part of the programme: one million and a half of
euro. And at the beginning of 2008, we signed an
agreement with NAPTIP together with the Minister of
Justice and Attorney-General of the Federation to
start a new programme for two and a half million
euro.
Apart from fighting human trafficking, what
special project is your embassy doing to further
enhance the relationship between Italy and Nigeria?
Italy and Italians have been in Nigeria long before
the country's independence and they have been
actively involved in its infrastructural development
that is, roads, dams, civil infrastructures,
buildings. All of these, I dare say, show the
ingenuity of the Italian work and skills - from the
International Conference Centre to the Ecumenical
Centre (both in Abuja); from the Gurara dam to the
Third (Mainland) Bridge in Lagos. We continue in
that traditional path, developing also trade, the
oil and energy sector, agriculture and water
resources, and other important programmes of the
seven-point agenda of President Yar'Adua.
In my capacity as a professional artist, I have done
a good number of art works in Nigeria to enhance the
relationship between the countries. I have opened
the studio of the Italian Embassy to some Nigerians
with artistic acumen in the likes of Joe Musa, the
Director-General of the National Gallery of Arts (NGA)
to showcase their art work. All these will give room
for the enhancement of the visual art industry,
which when properly managed will further advance the
Nigerian economy.
.Interview was
originally titled:Democracy Still A Young
Plant In Nigeria. |
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